Epic Entrepreneurs
Welcome to Epic Entrepreneurs! What does it take to build a real and thriving business in today’s world? As entrepreneurs and business owners, we went into business to have more freedom of time and money. Yet, the path of growing a business isn’t always filled with sunshine and rainbows. In this chart-topping show, host Bill Gilliland; author of the best-selling book “The Coach Approach” leverages his decades of experience coaching proven entrepreneurs to make more money, grow the right teams, and find the freedom of EPIC Entrepreneurship.
Epic Entrepreneurs
From Mowing to Growing: Jonathan Lloyd's Journey of Smith & Lloyd
Two Jons with a trailer, a walk-behind mower, and absolutely zero business education decided to start a landscaping company. Seven years later, they're maintaining the grounds at Amazon's Asheville facility and transforming backyards into community-building spaces. This is the refreshingly honest story of Smith & Lloyd Landscaping.
Jon Lloyd pulls back the curtain on the entrepreneurial journey with disarming candor. "We should have charged more," he admits, reflecting on years of undervaluing their expertise. The growth strategy that propelled their success? Simply showing up and doing good work.
The conversation explores entrepreneurial myths and realities. John shares wisdom about selecting clients (sometimes "the juice isn't worth the squeeze"), managing work-life balance during busy seasons, and the two non-negotiable qualities he looks for in employees. His advice for aspiring business owners is both practical and profound.
About Jonathan:
Jonathan Lloyd moved to Asheville, NC in 2015, after spending most of his life in his hometown of Honesdale, Pennsylvania. Jon received his Bachelor's degree in Landscape Architecture from Penn State University in University Park, Pennsylvania, before gaining over a decade of experience in landscaping and construction.
With his extensive knowledge of design and craftsmanship, Jon is dedicated to creating exquisite designs for both function and artistry in the Asheville and Hendersonville area. He and his partner, John, founded their landscaping company to deliver top-notch services to residents and management companies.
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Bill
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Bill
Hey there, welcome to this week's episode of Epic Entrepreneurs. I am really excited. I'm here with John Lloyd of Smith Lloyd Landscaping and Design and I can't wait to hear this story. Hi, john, hey, how are you doing? I'm good, tell us a little bit about Smith and Lloyd. What's the story there?
Speaker 2:Story. Short story I'll try to make. It is yeah, I moved here in 2015. I became good friends with a guy named John Smith and one of our friends was doing hardscaping His his business was named the yard fathers and he was doing lawn care and hardscaping and he decided I just want to focus on hardscaping. So he asked us if we wanted to buy some of his uh, residential lawn account and, uh, my business partner, john I know it's confusing, we're both named John but yeah, he was like doing grounds maintenance for a big medical facility at the time and I have a background, I have a degree in landscape architecture. So we figured, you know, we could build something here and this is like a little place to start. So, yeah, we bought those accounts from him and we just he had his dad's old trucks, we bought a trailer and we bought a walk behind mower and just started working.
Speaker 2:And uh, you know, over the years it's grown a lot and we've kind of honed down our services. We used to kind of just do whatever people asked um in the beginning but we've, um, you know, now we, we, we, we primarily do, uh, full grounds maintenance um. So people, you know, want their yard mowed, their mulch done, hedging, their leaves cleaned up in the winter. We just kind of give them a whole package of what it's going to be for the year and and, uh, they sign up that way. And the same thing with commercial contracts. We do the big Amazon facility here in Asheville and a couple other big ones like that, but those are kind of our bread and butter. And then we also do landscape design and install like patios, retaining walls. Outdoor living in general, like outdoor places, like community, is really important to me. So I really love designing outdoor spaces where people can get together, hang out, you know, create memories and have fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's cool, that's a great mission to create community and to enhance community and I think that's I think a lot of people end up in Western North Carolina are all about community.
Speaker 2:Yep, yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's, that's cool. Well, let's, let's. Let's talk about business for a minute. Like if you had to start over in business, what would you do differently?
Speaker 2:I would have taken a business class.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Neither one of us had ever taken a single class on business or anything. We just, you know, did all the paperwork, start the business and got a QuickBooks account and a CPA that worked on it once a year and that was we just started going, you know, without really knowing anything about business. So, yeah, I would do a little research and find out. You know best practices and kind of order of operations and where not to outstretch yourself, and you know things like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. You know any kind of school really. I mean, I don't you know dental school, medical school, landscape architecture, engineering, it doesn't really matter, they don't. You have to go get the business education. So they're not, it's not part of the curriculum, so to speak. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's great, that's great advice. So so you have learned some things over the years. What? What are some of the biggest learnings you've had as as an owner and an employer?
Speaker 2:the biggest learnings you've had as an owner and an employer. To first was to charge more. We didn't charge nearly enough when we started. For years we didn't charge enough. We may still not charge quite enough, but we basically just took what we were both making hourly and kind of increased it by 50% and and charged that for our hourly rate, which was just you know, and we ended up probably getting paid less than we were at our jobs before. Another big thing is just not saying yes to everything and trying to get a feel, for if you know if a customer actually wants to spend money, for if, uh, you know if a customer actually wants to spend money and if they're, you know, have a realistic expectation of what they want and how much that's going to cost and and um and I haven't run into this a lot but just some customers you meet and you just get a feeling of they're going to a lot.
Speaker 2:But just some customers you meet and you just get a feeling of they're going to, they're going to be really hard to work with and it may the juice may not be worth the squeeze with it and being able to just walk away from that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's okay, cause they'll probably work well with somebody else. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's an interesting one that the one about not saying yes to everything is big. I have a mentor named Paul Dunn who's a great guy and I don't know, he's probably close to he's in his late 70s, for sure Maybe 80. I don't know he, he's a, but he's, you know, one of these really enthusiastic guys. And he said, bill, you know, success is what you say no to, you know. And I'm like, yeah, he well, he says it's what you say no to, or who you say no to. So it's both of the same things you just said, like not every not every client is a great client for you.
Speaker 1:Not every job is a great job for you, and in your business they you've got to have a great job and a great client to make it useful. So yeah, it's, it's. Uh. Yeah, it's, it's all about fit and it's okay if it's not a fit. That's a hard lesson to learn. What do you think some of the misconceptions are about running a business?
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people probably think you get to take a lot of time off and have kind of an easy life, that other people are doing all the hard work, and I think it's possible to get to a point where maybe you know I could have that, but it's not. It doesn't seem like I don't know. I think I'm just kind of the kind of person who's going to even if I delegate more and then I have less to do, I'm just going to take on more anyway, sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's just working differently, yeah, and working smarter. It's not working. Yeah, it's not, it's working differently. It doesn't mean you don't work. I mean look, and everybody, I mean you see some business owners that do a great job and they've got a team and the business more or less works without them. You know what? They work their butt off to get there.
Speaker 2:They didn't just, it wasn't just handed to them no yeah, no, yes, I mean with, we didn't have any investors or anyone you know, anyone that loaned us money to start off. We just kind of built it from the ground up and and hearing people you know say stuff like oh, it must be nice, or like stuff like that. You know, when you get a new truck and it's, it's just like man, you have no idea, like you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and it's you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, and it's you know, and I mean you still got to pay for the truck, right? I mean it's not, you know, that's not. It's not like if you go to work for somebody else and they have trucks, you get a truck. You don't have to pay for it. Somebody, you know, the company pays for it. So I mean you do earn it, but mean it's an interesting thing too. So what do you attribute your growth to?
Speaker 2:I think it was just showing up and doing good work. Yeah, that was what someone gave us, that advice, in the beginning, and we were both just kind of those people to begin with. And, yeah, you know, most of it's grown from just word of mouth. We haven't really marketed at all. I just did a video, had it produced, that we'll put on Facebook ads probably in the next couple weeks, but that's the first time I've really created any type of advertising. Yeah, well it makes sense to any type of advertising.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it makes sense. I mean, when you start out you don't have a ton of money for marketing, so you invest time and invest in the work that it takes to meet people and get out there and make it happen in word of mouth, and then you can trade back some of your time with money once you get a little bit of cash flow. Yeah, yeah, yeah so yeah, it's a good thing. So we talked about this a little bit. But how do you balance like personal life and demands of running a business?
Speaker 2:Very carefully, I don't know. I go in and out of being pretty good with that and then being not so good with it. Like it's spring right now, you know I'll find myself working, you know, most of the day and then maybe going out to eat with some people my family and then I'm going back home and just getting on the computer and doing some estimates for a couple hours at night. And that's not what I normally, you know, do, but just sometimes the work just calls for that and, um, I don't know, I try to exercise and stuff. I think that helps a lot with stress, just like, you know, getting that anxiousness out of my body.
Speaker 2:Things don't seem as overwhelming and stressful when that happens. And I'd say perspective too. Like you know, I'll get in this mindset where, if I just don't get these things done, I don't get back to these people like everything's going to fall apart and that's just not the reality of the, the situation. Like there's stuff, like there's stuff that could just not get done and things will be fine. Um, you know, we haven't lost really many customers at all over the years and I think, just picking up the phone, um, I went and looked at a place, uh last week and the guy told me I was the only one who answered the phone. He called about 14 different landscaping companies.
Speaker 1:It is so simple. I mean I promise you it's so simple. Talk to people. Answer the phone. I mean everybody's busy right now. It's not like they're in plenty of work and so, yeah, I mean it always lasts when I hear that, oh, I just answered the phone, I just talk to people, I just call them, I call people back, you know. Yeah, I mean you know it's I always I'm like it's not that hard, guys, just answer the phone. Talk to people. Yeah, talk to the people. So what do you look for in good employees? Like, what qualities do you look for when you're hiring team members?
Speaker 2:Well, it depends what area they're working in. You know weed whacking in the summer and 90 degree weather. You know not everyone's cut out for that and it's hard to know whether someone's going to be able to handle that or not. You know when they're applying and coming on to start, but the biggest thing I'll say is just showing up and being teachable.
Speaker 2:And people think they know everything and you can't really teach them anything. They're pretty much useless If they don't show up useless. I've hired people and just they don't show up the first day and they're just, uh, just this is the weirdest thing that someone and then have them twist you Like you could just let me know. You know, I think those are the two biggest things, like just being open-minded and teachable to learn new things and just being there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like it. Show up and be teachable. I mean, it's good advice for any. You know I it's a there's a rash of. I don't understand it because I don't know what, what the deal is. I mean, you know, do what you say you're going to do. Essentially, I don't, I don't. I mean, if you don't want to work, fine, pick up the phone and call me and tell me you're not, you're not coming. Not, you're not coming. Uh, I'm okay with that, I just but you know that's a terrible thing to just to just to not show up and I've, and there's a rash of it, yeah, I'll be there monday, we'll start and boom, not starting, I mean I'm not coming.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, it's craziest thing I've ever seen I get it yeah, yeah, I don't even want people that are like kids these days.
Speaker 1:You know, and it's not kids, I don't know what it is, it's. I mean, it's just lack of common courtesy and there's. You know, there's no excuse for bad manners. I don't care. If you don't want to work, fine, just let someone know what you go for. Go work for somebody else, well. But there, you know, the misconception is that there aren't people out there. There are plenty of people out there who want to work. You have to work a little harder than we did a few years ago, but right now there are still people out there. You just have to do the work. So let me give you some quick fire questions. Epic is an acronym, and so just maybe a word or a sentence about each word. So the E is education. So what are your thoughts on education?
Speaker 2:I think it's good to educate employees on our common practices and how we want things done, because I can't be on every job, I can't tell people our standards and be there. So having people looking at that and controlling that and just instilling that in each of our employees of, like, this is how we want a property to look when we're pulling away. That keeps things pretty congruent and, yeah, that's what came to mind. Education.
Speaker 1:Perfect, yeah, so the P is planning. What are your thoughts on planning?
Speaker 2:Planning. Oh man, I wish I was better at planning. Really, I didn't plan a whole, we didn't plan. You know, planning wasn't part of our business model. Let me ask you a question?
Speaker 1:I think you're, so I'm going to challenge you on that. If you were going to do a landscape, you're a landscape designer. You have to plan. By definition, you are a good planner. The question is, you've just never been taught to do the plan on the other side, on some other things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as far as plan for growth and like structure and uh yeah like um, scaling the business like that is stuff that I'm all learning. You know right now that I was again. I never went to a business class, so I never even thought about that type of stuff.
Speaker 1:Perfect, got it. Yeah, yeah, we can end with that. What uh I inspiration?
Speaker 2:Inspiration. Yeah, I've gotten a lot of inspiration from people older than me in the trades and how they live, how they treat their employees. I've had really good bosses in the past who were great models as far as being a good boss.
Speaker 1:I took a lot of that with me. Yeah, I like it. I like it how about C commitment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I relate that to what we talked about earlier just showing up and doing good work. I mean, each contract we sign with somebody is a commitment to do what's in that contract. So we commit to it and do that.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. Yeah, that's great. So what do you wish somebody had told you that you know now, before you went into business.
Speaker 2:Hmm, that it was going to be really really really hard for quite a while. I guess, someone wouldn't have that insight without knowing my background and having no background in business, wouldn't have that insight without knowing my you know background and having no background in business. But um yeah, I didn't. I didn't know how, how much of a struggle it was going to be just to figure out how to do it. And I don't know that that deterred me either, though, to be honest.
Speaker 1:No, that wouldn't. I mean there are some. I mean I've said over time there's some things that I wouldn't have done and probably never would have if I'd known how hard they were going to be, but now I'm glad I did them. So there's a difference. But yeah, I think you can make that across the board. If you talk to somebody who's been in business for years, you just say, hey look, you're going to have to work hard. I mean, this is a journey. It doesn't happen overnight. It takes months and years. It doesn't take days and weeks. This is an ongoing marathon. It's a marathon really, it's not a sprint. So I love that. I love that. So what would you say to other business owners or entrepreneurs who are looking to grow?
Speaker 2:Um, probably do some research about it and figure out. You know, like in in my business, you know, example is is. You know example is my business, I mean sure, getting a bunch of new accounts, you know, and growing, you know, the the income is great. But if you're not ready to really scale and you don't have all these procedures in place of how the crews run, how they load up in the morning, what they do when they get back to the shop, upkeeping all the maintenance on the, you know, if you have double the mowers, that's double the maintenance, double the blade sharpening, double the weed eaters, double the supplies they need. So it's easy to kind of go out and get more business but then if you're not ready for it, all these big gaps are going to. You know, all these little holes in the business are going to get much bigger real quick if you're not ready for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good advice. So grow responsibly, basically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, prepare for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, get in there. So this has been great. Anything else you'd like to say or add, or tell us about your business?
Speaker 2:No, you know, the one thing, when we were just talking about like advice we got, I think the best advice we got was just a pension, because it's the one thing you pay. That pays you back. When I was in my 20s and stuff I worked for contractors. I just paid attention to how they were doing stuff. Now I have a general contracting business, also Just paying attention to people that knew what they were doing. You know, you can learn a lot and then make money doing those those things that you've maybe learned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Pay attention. I love that. Yeah, be observant, be you know, be a sponge. Yeah, you know. One of my mentors I remember I was he said, he, he said it doesn't matter what kind of job you get, bill, just be a sponge, learn, but learn as much as you can wherever you go, and, and, and, be a sponge, and I and I think what you can, take what you can and kind of leave the rest um, that some people aren't going to be great models of like what to you know what to do, but they may be.
Speaker 2:they may really know what they're doing in other areas.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they may be a model of what not to do, and so that's okay too. You know, pay attention to that too, because hey, I don't want to do it that way, you know, as you're growing up. So how does someone get in touch with you if they want to get some landscaping done, have a maintenance, you know, get their yards taken care of, or sounds like you do some general contracting too. What, what do you do there?
Speaker 2:tell us about that before we go um, what we've been doing a lot of is, uh, stuff after the storm, after the hurricane. So, um, a couple houses out in black mountain that were hit by trees, that had the roof come in. You know, we're coming in and putting a new porch on a new roof. On redoing all the drywall, the flooring, the trim, the paint um, we're mostly doing like remodel stuff at this point.
Speaker 1:All right, that's good to know, because we sure do need it.
Speaker 2:There are a lot of houses with blue tarps still on them oh, yeah, yeah and um, as far as getting a hold of me um smithandlloydcom yep our website. You can find us on google smith and lloyd landscaping and design. Yep, uh, send me an email, jonathan at smithandlloydcom. Her phone number is on our Google account, but it's 828-600-1030.
Speaker 1:And I love it. I love it. That's great. Hey, this has been good. I really appreciate you being on here. Thanks for being. There's a lot of good info here.
Speaker 2:Good Thank you. It was a pleasure being on. Thanks for asking me to do it.
Speaker 1:And until next time.